Their Response
Of my friends, who replied?
March/05/2008
Of the dozens or so people I sent a link to my
new blog only two have responded so far. Both
were pastors and both said it didn't affect the
way they think about me. Both of them know me on
a personal level, which I think helps to dispel
what an atheist is. I'm a very happy person, and
an atheist.
|
Sharing this blog with my friends.
March/02/2008
I sent an email to about 12 of my friends today
to share this new blog. The first response was a
good one. My friend Rob (a pastor), asked "Why I
waited so long to come out of the closet?"
Excellent question.
First of all let me explain that when I was a believer I kept it to myself. So when I became a non-believer I kept it to myself. Fortunately I began writing everything down. Even when I thought I might share this new part of me there was an obvious concern. How will friends treat me, will they suddenly become afraid of me somehow?
In "The God Delusion" Richard Dawkins says, "The status of atheists in America today is on par with that of homosexuals fifty years ago." Thats' a scary thought, are people going to fight me because of this? It's reason enough to be concerned or take precautions. In my previous post, I thanked several individuals for their help. They helped by indicating what it's like to be a known atheist in America today. They all said hate mail is virtually non-existant. So if christians only occasionally get animated then should I worry about Muslims? Then I realized, they view christians and atheists as infidels, so we are no different to them.
Now that I've ruled out threats and harm, who am I afraid might know that I'm an atheist? No one.
Christians openly show what they believe with their Jesus fish on their cars, and their crosses hanging from the rear view mirror. If they can openly share their personal beliefs without fear of harm then so can I.
To answer your question Rob, "Why did I wait so long to come out the closet?" Fear of the unknown, I really didn't know what would happen when people found out. I wanted to wait and get some answers from seasoned atheists about whether or not I was endangering my family (because my family come first). It was only 5 months ago yesterday that I decided I was an atheist, so it really hasn't been that long.
First of all let me explain that when I was a believer I kept it to myself. So when I became a non-believer I kept it to myself. Fortunately I began writing everything down. Even when I thought I might share this new part of me there was an obvious concern. How will friends treat me, will they suddenly become afraid of me somehow?
In "The God Delusion" Richard Dawkins says, "The status of atheists in America today is on par with that of homosexuals fifty years ago." Thats' a scary thought, are people going to fight me because of this? It's reason enough to be concerned or take precautions. In my previous post, I thanked several individuals for their help. They helped by indicating what it's like to be a known atheist in America today. They all said hate mail is virtually non-existant. So if christians only occasionally get animated then should I worry about Muslims? Then I realized, they view christians and atheists as infidels, so we are no different to them.
Now that I've ruled out threats and harm, who am I afraid might know that I'm an atheist? No one.
Christians openly show what they believe with their Jesus fish on their cars, and their crosses hanging from the rear view mirror. If they can openly share their personal beliefs without fear of harm then so can I.
To answer your question Rob, "Why did I wait so long to come out the closet?" Fear of the unknown, I really didn't know what would happen when people found out. I wanted to wait and get some answers from seasoned atheists about whether or not I was endangering my family (because my family come first). It was only 5 months ago yesterday that I decided I was an atheist, so it really hasn't been that long.
My friend's response.
November/12/2007
I wasn't sure what his response would be but it
did surprise me a little. He chooses to not be
labeled but said that he thinks the way I do.
He said he thought that I always thought that until he visited last year and I talked about church and our lives. He chalked it up to people changing.
He wasn't surprised that I made it here since he thought I already was. What did surprise me is that he said I was making too big a deal about it.
He hoped I'd never have to learn some of the truths that he has. For instance right and wrong are completely different in the Middle East.
He saw value in some of what Christianity provides to some people. He thinks they would have a much harder life if they didn't have a pleasant after-life to hang on to.
I was pleasantly surprised by his response.
He said he thought that I always thought that until he visited last year and I talked about church and our lives. He chalked it up to people changing.
He wasn't surprised that I made it here since he thought I already was. What did surprise me is that he said I was making too big a deal about it.
He hoped I'd never have to learn some of the truths that he has. For instance right and wrong are completely different in the Middle East.
He saw value in some of what Christianity provides to some people. He thinks they would have a much harder life if they didn't have a pleasant after-life to hang on to.
I was pleasantly surprised by his response.
Karen's change of mind, not about God, about me.
November/11/2007
Yesterday I sent Karen some information that I
found interesting. Some inconsistencies in the
bible.
Her intolerance of my atheism leapt forward and didn't want to hear it or talk about it. Once again I was described as badgering and bombarding. I didn't feel I was doing that all, just bringing it up was a problem. I'm not saying Karen's faith is weak but it does make sense to think that someone with weak faith can't afford distractions. And she was mean to me.
Jump forward to today. After Church Karen has informed me that not only has she told her pastor that I'm an atheist but also her best friend and her Sunday school class. This does not bother me. Karen's Sunday school class has indicated that she should embrace my discussions of the bible. Karen's main fear was that I was going to try and force her to think my way. Since I've never been able to force her to do anything I don't think she was thinking rationally.
So here we are now with the ability to discuss my findings. She even said that she will proof read my atheism blog, which she had previously chosen not to do.
How does this affect me? Greatly. It means that she may see view some of my thoughts and the information that I thought of and I've found with a more open mind.
I did promise, however, that I would never force her to try and think my way.
Her intolerance of my atheism leapt forward and didn't want to hear it or talk about it. Once again I was described as badgering and bombarding. I didn't feel I was doing that all, just bringing it up was a problem. I'm not saying Karen's faith is weak but it does make sense to think that someone with weak faith can't afford distractions. And she was mean to me.
Jump forward to today. After Church Karen has informed me that not only has she told her pastor that I'm an atheist but also her best friend and her Sunday school class. This does not bother me. Karen's Sunday school class has indicated that she should embrace my discussions of the bible. Karen's main fear was that I was going to try and force her to think my way. Since I've never been able to force her to do anything I don't think she was thinking rationally.
So here we are now with the ability to discuss my findings. She even said that she will proof read my atheism blog, which she had previously chosen not to do.
How does this affect me? Greatly. It means that she may see view some of my thoughts and the information that I thought of and I've found with a more open mind.
I did promise, however, that I would never force her to try and think my way.
My wife wants me to read the Bible, OK.
November/10/2007
My wife wants me to ready the bible thinking I
may find some truths in there. The problem is
that I'm reading parts of the bible with an
un-believer's eyes and I'm taking it literally.
If this is God's book, then he should be able to
protect it's translations through the years.
Karen told me this. But even she doesn't believe
that because she's taking a class that literally
translates the original hebrew text. So when I
showed her of an obvious mistake in the bible she
told me that it was a mis-translation.
I've argued that you couldn't trust the bible when I was a believer because of the mistranslations.
This is an easy one for you. Go to Wikipedia and look up bat. You know, that little flying creature. Now open your bible to Deuteronomy 14 and read from 14:11 to 14:18.
Did you catch that? The bible is referring to a bat as a bird. That's a pretty big mistake for God to make in his own book.
I found this awesome bible online that has some stuff annotated for the reader. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
The more I read the bible, the more it proves to me that it was written by men that believed the earth was flat (Isaiah 11:12)(Mathew 4:8) and the center of the universe.
I've argued that you couldn't trust the bible when I was a believer because of the mistranslations.
This is an easy one for you. Go to Wikipedia and look up bat. You know, that little flying creature. Now open your bible to Deuteronomy 14 and read from 14:11 to 14:18.
Did you catch that? The bible is referring to a bat as a bird. That's a pretty big mistake for God to make in his own book.
I found this awesome bible online that has some stuff annotated for the reader. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
The more I read the bible, the more it proves to me that it was written by men that believed the earth was flat (Isaiah 11:12)(Mathew 4:8) and the center of the universe.
Stephen's response.
November/04/2007
I was pleasantly surprised by Stephen's response.
While he was somewhat surprised he also said it
was to be expected of me. Very true.
I Question everything.
It doesn't look like this is going to hurt my relationship with Stephen which makes me happy.
Stephen I look forward to many interesting conversation about this with you.
I Question everything.
It doesn't look like this is going to hurt my relationship with Stephen which makes me happy.
Stephen I look forward to many interesting conversation about this with you.
No word from Stephen yet.
November/03/2007
Normally when I send something to Stephen he
replies relatively quickly. Stephen's dad is a
pastor and Stephen is currently in a Bible
college.
Not really sure if he just didn't have anything to say or it was to much for him. I look forward to hearing from you Stephen.
I still love you very much, that won't change.
Not really sure if he just didn't have anything to say or it was to much for him. I look forward to hearing from you Stephen.
I still love you very much, that won't change.
Another conversation with Karen
November/02/2007
Today I thought I would ask Karen why she hadn't
commented on the email I sent. She said she
didn't have any comments.
I tried to spark some interest but got nothing. I was hoping for an interesting conversation. An intelligent, thought provoking conversation.
But Karen is unable to converse about religion without emotion and therefore you can see where the conversation went. She asked me to stop badgering her about this topic. I took offense to wanting to have a conversation about my new interests and her referring to it as badgering. Throughout our 16 years of marriage Karen has regularly asked me to go to church with her and then Sunday School. Even when I was a Christian believer I didn't really like church, it's part of my personality. I didn't think after 16 years a few conversations would be to much to ask but it is.
After she used the words "lies" referring to what I was telling her and "propaganda" referring to anything I referenced online, I realized she really didn't understand where I was coming from. Either she hadn't understood me previously or I didn't explain myself well enough so I spent the next 15 minutes explaining how I came to my conclusion and interestingly enough her mood changed. I don't understand why.
She has no interest in talking to me about this and said that it could break up our marriage.
I tried to spark some interest but got nothing. I was hoping for an interesting conversation. An intelligent, thought provoking conversation.
But Karen is unable to converse about religion without emotion and therefore you can see where the conversation went. She asked me to stop badgering her about this topic. I took offense to wanting to have a conversation about my new interests and her referring to it as badgering. Throughout our 16 years of marriage Karen has regularly asked me to go to church with her and then Sunday School. Even when I was a Christian believer I didn't really like church, it's part of my personality. I didn't think after 16 years a few conversations would be to much to ask but it is.
After she used the words "lies" referring to what I was telling her and "propaganda" referring to anything I referenced online, I realized she really didn't understand where I was coming from. Either she hadn't understood me previously or I didn't explain myself well enough so I spent the next 15 minutes explaining how I came to my conclusion and interestingly enough her mood changed. I don't understand why.
She has no interest in talking to me about this and said that it could break up our marriage.
The email I sent Karen yesterday.
November/01/2007
This is the email I sent to Karen yesterday
(10/31/2007) early in the morning.
START
You asked how long will I continue to bug you about God, I don't know.
You said I wanted you to be on my side, that is incorrect, only religions have sides. Even the same religion has sides.
Atheism is realizing that supernatural beings never existed in any form and choosing no side.
Being raised with a religion helps you understand the people around you that believe in Gods.
But I honestly would have preferred to have never been introduced to any religion.
Intelligent people raised without religion would never believe in God. Because there is no evidence in the world that any God has ever existed.
Trying to use the Bible as proof only legitimizes every religion that has their own Bible. That would make all Gods real.
And every God from prior civilizations have been proven to have not existed. The future will show todays civilizations as being no different.
The Bible is probably the product of some mans good intentions for a world he thought was falling apart. http://godisimaginary.com/video2.htm
Or men who owned slaves and needed a way to keep them in check. It was written by men with ulterior motives, just like all of the religious books that you don't believe in.
The Bible is a trap. Once you're in you're not suppose to be able to get out. It has strict reasons for you to not want out.
What better trick than eternal damnation. But something in my mind finally said "Something is just not right here".
Prayer is also a trick. I'm sure the writers of the Bible knew that prayer would result in 50/50 chance, therefore being enough to convince most.
And the Bible gives it's believers a convenient answer for unanswered prayer. God's mysterious, God has a plan. http://godisimaginary.com/video3.htm
If God has a plan, and you can't change it, then why pray. http://godisimaginary.com/video8.htm
If your 5 year old son was dying and God's plan was to take him then your praying for him to live would be for nothing?
If your 5 year old son was dying and God's plan was not to take him then why pray when God would already know what you wanted?
The Bible was most likely written by the most intelligent men of the time. They would be amazed at how it survived a modern intelligent society.
I may be wired differently than most people which probably explains why I was never capable of feeling what it is when people say their filled with Jesus.
Because that feeling requires a level of emotion that I'm incapable of achieving and a total lack of logic. Therefore making it slightly easier for me to escape.
Many people who are not like me have also escaped. It probably took a lot more convincing. It's not just one thing but the numbers don't lie.
Everything is as random with God as it is without. That doesn't bode well for an all powerful being that answers the prayers of it's followers.
But I'm sure that a worldly person would see that their Gods don't exist outside their tribes. This would give them cause for thought.
I stopped believing in Santa when I was 12. I stopped believing in the supernatural when I was 36.
I say the supernatural because it's more than Gods that I don't believe in. It's anything that's explained with a reason other than coincidence.
I wish I had stuck with thought process I started when I was 18. http://godisimaginary.com/video7.htm
When you know there's no Gods you begin to realize all the things you could have been learning about our world.
That were previously explained by Creationism. Which is not an answer but is being used as something other than a coincidence.
Once you realize, there's no going back. It dawns on you that that you believed in an imaginary being just like all the people in the stories that were proven false.
What are all of those people that don't believe in evolution going to say when science has had the time to prove evolution is real?
They are simply going to say that God started the process, completely going against their own previous beliefs that they were put here in their current form.
It is the person making the claim that something exists that have to prove themselves, not the other way around. When I looked for that proof it didn't exist.
I know religion creates security. And Monday your security felt threatened. You know logically I wouldn't hurt you or the girls.
If you're certain God exists then looking for proof of that existence would not change your fait. http://godisimaginary.com/
This particular website has many other videos and pages of information. I recommend that you look it over to see how well your faith stands up.
You can have purpose without religion. Purpose is motivation to do something. Purpose can be internal and of your own choosing.
You and I are the most free thinking people I know. When we believed in God we still wouldn't let our child play outside unattended. Why? Because of logic.
Logic dictates the majority of our lives. We are not sheep. We do not follow the crowd. We are not easily convinced. Except when applied to religion, then logic is removed and your mind is no longer free.
When you realize something so important you want to share it with those around you. That's all I'm doing. It makes you re-examine how you want to spend your one life on this planet. "Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself" "You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." Fortunately in our world, when you take the red pill, the world on the other side isn't destroyed. It's looks as beautiful as it always has only now it's a completely random beauty. Just millions of years of nature refining itself. It's fantastic, I have a whole new respect for nature even though I still have no interest in camping.
I'm not wrong. I used the logic that you know I have to figure something out. Only this one was a biggie. I've included a few videos and links that might help you understand what I know. Be aware that none of these things were seen by me before I made my decision that God doesn't exist. They only came about from research after I made my decision. None of these materials convinced me of anything, I already made my decision they simply showed that my thinking is inline with that of a freed mind. Also, I wrote 99% of this email and went and found videos to match what I wrote, it was not the other way around.
Once your mind starts to break free it dawns on you that you live around millions of people who's minds are not free. How do you approach them? How do you listen respectfully when they talk of imaginary things? I don't have these answers. But I'm seriously hoping that you see what I know and we can begin to discuss what life and the world means without God.
When I die, I'm not going to heaven (http://godisimaginary.com/video1.htm), I'm not going to hell, I will simply be returned to earth that allowed me to exist here for a little while.
END
She read it the that morning I'm sure. Not once did she make any comment about it until we were sitting outside talking about licorice being a flavor not a food type and she said "I'm right". I knew she was referring to my penultimate paragraph that starts with "I'm not wrong".
START
You asked how long will I continue to bug you about God, I don't know.
You said I wanted you to be on my side, that is incorrect, only religions have sides. Even the same religion has sides.
Atheism is realizing that supernatural beings never existed in any form and choosing no side.
Being raised with a religion helps you understand the people around you that believe in Gods.
But I honestly would have preferred to have never been introduced to any religion.
Intelligent people raised without religion would never believe in God. Because there is no evidence in the world that any God has ever existed.
Trying to use the Bible as proof only legitimizes every religion that has their own Bible. That would make all Gods real.
And every God from prior civilizations have been proven to have not existed. The future will show todays civilizations as being no different.
The Bible is probably the product of some mans good intentions for a world he thought was falling apart. http://godisimaginary.com/video2.htm
Or men who owned slaves and needed a way to keep them in check. It was written by men with ulterior motives, just like all of the religious books that you don't believe in.
The Bible is a trap. Once you're in you're not suppose to be able to get out. It has strict reasons for you to not want out.
What better trick than eternal damnation. But something in my mind finally said "Something is just not right here".
Prayer is also a trick. I'm sure the writers of the Bible knew that prayer would result in 50/50 chance, therefore being enough to convince most.
And the Bible gives it's believers a convenient answer for unanswered prayer. God's mysterious, God has a plan. http://godisimaginary.com/video3.htm
If God has a plan, and you can't change it, then why pray. http://godisimaginary.com/video8.htm
If your 5 year old son was dying and God's plan was to take him then your praying for him to live would be for nothing?
If your 5 year old son was dying and God's plan was not to take him then why pray when God would already know what you wanted?
The Bible was most likely written by the most intelligent men of the time. They would be amazed at how it survived a modern intelligent society.
I may be wired differently than most people which probably explains why I was never capable of feeling what it is when people say their filled with Jesus.
Because that feeling requires a level of emotion that I'm incapable of achieving and a total lack of logic. Therefore making it slightly easier for me to escape.
Many people who are not like me have also escaped. It probably took a lot more convincing. It's not just one thing but the numbers don't lie.
Everything is as random with God as it is without. That doesn't bode well for an all powerful being that answers the prayers of it's followers.
But I'm sure that a worldly person would see that their Gods don't exist outside their tribes. This would give them cause for thought.
I stopped believing in Santa when I was 12. I stopped believing in the supernatural when I was 36.
I say the supernatural because it's more than Gods that I don't believe in. It's anything that's explained with a reason other than coincidence.
I wish I had stuck with thought process I started when I was 18. http://godisimaginary.com/video7.htm
When you know there's no Gods you begin to realize all the things you could have been learning about our world.
That were previously explained by Creationism. Which is not an answer but is being used as something other than a coincidence.
Once you realize, there's no going back. It dawns on you that that you believed in an imaginary being just like all the people in the stories that were proven false.
What are all of those people that don't believe in evolution going to say when science has had the time to prove evolution is real?
They are simply going to say that God started the process, completely going against their own previous beliefs that they were put here in their current form.
It is the person making the claim that something exists that have to prove themselves, not the other way around. When I looked for that proof it didn't exist.
I know religion creates security. And Monday your security felt threatened. You know logically I wouldn't hurt you or the girls.
If you're certain God exists then looking for proof of that existence would not change your fait. http://godisimaginary.com/
This particular website has many other videos and pages of information. I recommend that you look it over to see how well your faith stands up.
You can have purpose without religion. Purpose is motivation to do something. Purpose can be internal and of your own choosing.
You and I are the most free thinking people I know. When we believed in God we still wouldn't let our child play outside unattended. Why? Because of logic.
Logic dictates the majority of our lives. We are not sheep. We do not follow the crowd. We are not easily convinced. Except when applied to religion, then logic is removed and your mind is no longer free.
When you realize something so important you want to share it with those around you. That's all I'm doing. It makes you re-examine how you want to spend your one life on this planet. "Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself" "You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." Fortunately in our world, when you take the red pill, the world on the other side isn't destroyed. It's looks as beautiful as it always has only now it's a completely random beauty. Just millions of years of nature refining itself. It's fantastic, I have a whole new respect for nature even though I still have no interest in camping.
I'm not wrong. I used the logic that you know I have to figure something out. Only this one was a biggie. I've included a few videos and links that might help you understand what I know. Be aware that none of these things were seen by me before I made my decision that God doesn't exist. They only came about from research after I made my decision. None of these materials convinced me of anything, I already made my decision they simply showed that my thinking is inline with that of a freed mind. Also, I wrote 99% of this email and went and found videos to match what I wrote, it was not the other way around.
Once your mind starts to break free it dawns on you that you live around millions of people who's minds are not free. How do you approach them? How do you listen respectfully when they talk of imaginary things? I don't have these answers. But I'm seriously hoping that you see what I know and we can begin to discuss what life and the world means without God.
When I die, I'm not going to heaven (http://godisimaginary.com/video1.htm), I'm not going to hell, I will simply be returned to earth that allowed me to exist here for a little while.
END
She read it the that morning I'm sure. Not once did she make any comment about it until we were sitting outside talking about licorice being a flavor not a food type and she said "I'm right". I knew she was referring to my penultimate paragraph that starts with "I'm not wrong".
Asking Karen to review what I've learned.
October/29/2007
Before I took my daughter to the Vets office
(where she volunteers) I asked Karen if she would
review the information I learned. At first she
seemed willing.
Then I realize she thought I was talking about evolution. I explained that I meant belief in God. She maintained her composure for a while.
When it dawned on her that I might be interested in sharing with the girls what I had learned she became completely closed off.
She also became upset. I felt that I was interrupting her belief in God and the security that she gets from it so I backed off.
Then I realize she thought I was talking about evolution. I explained that I meant belief in God. She maintained her composure for a while.
When it dawned on her that I might be interested in sharing with the girls what I had learned she became completely closed off.
She also became upset. I felt that I was interrupting her belief in God and the security that she gets from it so I backed off.
Karen spell checking and grammar correcting my post.
October/26/2007
