Brand New Atheist

19 Responses to “How do believers handle things in the bible that are wrong?”

1. August 1st, 2008 at 12:01 pm

   Robert Fischer says:

   Nobody replied because you’re fishing for an argument. See my #1 rule: http://enfranchisedmind.com/blog/2008/01/01/let-me-save-you-40-heres-how-to-be-happy/

   There are way bigger factual problems in the Bible then the ones you lined up. Just in the Gospels, the whole timeline of the passion contradicts each other. His last words are different. The Lord’s prayer is different.

   Biblical literalism isn’t a reasonable position for a Christian to take. Granted.

2. August 1st, 2008 at 12:32 pm

   Rob Jones "Brand New Atheist" says:

   I am 100% not fishing for arguments. Before I became an atheist my wife believed the bible was the inerrant word of god. After only few conversations with her she changed her mind.

   That lead me to wonder how other believers (who think the bible is the inerrant word of god) would respond if I pointed out the same things. It’s really more an experiment which is why I asked them to write down their answer before they did any research.

   Yes I’m aware of other factual arguments in the bible but I’m only talking about these ten.

3. August 1st, 2008 at 2:05 pm

   Robert Fischer says:

   Ah, so this isn’t the post which was supposed to refute my arguments?

4. August 2nd, 2008 at 12:44 am

   Books and Magazines Blog » Archive » How do believers handle things in the bible that are wrong? says:

   [...] Original post by Brand New Atheist [...]

5. August 28th, 2008 at 9:42 pm

   xJane says:

   Robert’s right for the most part. Most people “secure in their faith” won’t bother to debate with you because they’ll assume (correctly) that you just want to convert them. But then, they will expect to have a conversation with you about how great! the Bible is and you won’t get to assume (correctly) that they just want to convert you…ain’t double standards great?

   Very infrequently, you’ll meet someone who will want to debate you. Some of them are secretly trying to play your game to convert you (but they’ll still play) but most of these people are on their way out and are looking for good arguments.

   Good luck!

6. August 28th, 2008 at 10:01 pm

   Robert Fischer says:

   Uh, Christians who are out to have a conversation “about how great! the Bible is” generally don’t have a problem when you recognize the fact that they’re trying to convert you.

   My primary point was that it’s a stupid experiment he’s laying out, all based on an assumptions that 1) Biblical literalism is key to Christian faith and 2) that Christians — literalists and otherwise — aren’t aware of the contradictory nature of the Bible.

7. September 10th, 2008 at 9:43 pm

   Chris S says:

   Hello Rob, I’m guessing you’re hot asking these questions so someone can convince you to become a Xn but perhaps rather to answer the question “How can someone believe this stuff?” since no one he knew was polite enough to answer I thought I’d give it a go.

   These are condensed answers so I’m happy to expand on any of them if you want.

   Questions 1-4

   I’ll deal with these 4 questions in one hit. You can also add that pi = 3 and technically that the earth is a dome with waters above and below (kind of like an inverted snow dome). All of these are really the same critique, that is that the Bible is not scientifically correct. I would argue that the Bible is trying to answer why the world has been created rather than how the world is created which is why much of the creation story is a re interpretation of already existing creation myths with an emphasis on the world being ordered rather than a random accidental chaos. I’ve written a bit about this if you want to read more at http://achurchlessfaith.blogspot.com/2006/06/not-so-intelligent-and-definitely-not.html

   Question 5.

   I think how you read these texts depends on how you view the Bible. that is whether you view it like a big law book were you can quote random verses from anywhere or whether you see it as an unfolding story or revelation. if you believe the first option then you have to disagree with Paul that you can be Xn without being Jewish as well. to me arguing that slavery is ok is a bit like arguing that neo is still trapped in the matrix by showing selected clips from the matrix.

   Question 6.

   Personally I think this is very much intentional rather than an overlooked flaw. it is part of an ongoing pattern of God promising to do one thing but then relenting and not doing it, or doing something less severe. This was exactly Jonah’s problem with God and why he goes off to sulk in the last chapter of Jonah (the chapter usually left out by Sunday school teachers)

   Question 7

   Also the book of Jude quotes Enoch (a non canonical book) as well. quoting texts outside the cannon will disturb you depending on your view of the cannon of scripture. If you view it as divine instructions handed down from God kind of 10 commandments style and the only source of any truth then this is going to be a problem (and you’ll still be arguing that the world is flat and 6000yrs old). however if you view it as something that people chewed over for a while before they decided what was in and what was out (which is historically what happened) then it might not be so much of a problem. Also, if you are happy to accept that there is wisdom to be found outside of the cannon then it’s not so much of a problem either.

   Question 8

   Yep, the passage in the old testament that Luke quotes (Isaiah 7:14) is best translated as a young girl and was interpreted as virgin in Luke (from the slightly off Greek Septuagint rather than original Hebrew). some people might argue that the intent of “young girl” was virgin, it is also possible that Mary was a virgin even if the passage was mistranslated. I know that people make a big thing about the virgin birth but to honest for me it’s just one small passage in just one gospel and personally I don’t think it makes a big difference to the overall narrative either way.

   Question 9

   Hey what about the Leviathan (Job 41)? Or has someone found that ;) . See answers to question 1-4.

   Question 10

   Sure atheists can get into heaven. Any Xn who doesn’t believe that hasn’t read Matt 25:31-46. in this passage those who didn’t describe themselves as Jesus followers (no reason why they couldn’t be atheists as well) get into heaven, and those who do don’t get in.

   I hope these answers explain how at least one person is able to believe even though they know this stuff.

   Peace.

8. October 11th, 2008 at 9:30 pm

   Judiah says:

   I just wanted to point out that this is sooooo not the case:

   Biblical literalism is key to Christian faith

   It is in no way, the key to the Christian faith is the Apostle’s creed, pure and simple:

   I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.

   And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

   I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.

   As you can see, this leaves open the room for alot of interpretation, even the divinity of Jesus Christ, and still allows one to be labeled “Christian”.

   Heck, all the bible says is you have to call upon the Lord for salvation.

   I’m sorry you might have had different run ins with various sects, but do not apply your thinking to Xn at it’s core.

9. October 12th, 2008 at 12:02 am

   Rob Jones "Brand New Atheist" says:

   Re: Judiah.

   Were you commenting on the post or the comment before yours?

   If you think biblical literalism is what’s required then it’s your responsibility to kill me. And don’t try and separate the Old Testament from the New Testament. The New Testament is just as messed up.

   It’s the muslim that are the most faithful, they believe the literal words of their bible which is why they’re willing to kill themselves for it. Americans would never kill themselves for their god.

   And why if god is real do you have fewer infant deaths in the least religious places on Earth? I’ll tell you why, Science.

   I’ve already been religious, I know what it’s like, I prayed to the imaginary god, 36 years of it, I’ve been there, it’s religious people that are behind me. I’ve moved forward, yes forward.

10. October 15th, 2008 at 12:42 am

    david rees says:

    I honestly do not understand why you care to engage this topic.

    First, as to the “evils” of religion. I think it is well established that the religious, irreligious and every race and tribe that has ever walked the earth has, when given the opportunity, abused other humans.

    There are so many silly things that people believe in. So many religious, political, economic, scientific and philosophical systems that are both dangerous and wrong.

    I would think that becoming an atheist would be a terribly liberating experience.

    There is so very much foolishness in the world and you have crossed a line that has allowed you to add yet one more belief system and (all of its subsets) to the dustbin.

    By being so hung up on the bible and the religions that adhere to it, you seem to be ascribing them a sort of favored position.

    Again, in a godless world, what is the difference between a religious person and an atheist – beyond simply being “right” about one more thing?

    People generally go through their life just fine believing that getting too cold caused you to catch a cold or that putting butter on a burn will help it heal better or that *they* have to genetics to withstand the ravages of a fast-food diet.

    The 20th century is rife with examples of atheists trying to rid the world of what they saw as evil – to that end, hundreds of millions of people met their untimely end.

    The hands of atheism are not clean – because they are the hands of men.

11. October 15th, 2008 at 1:01 am

    Rob Jones "Brand New Atheist" says:

    I think your comments give the people too much credit. I know what I was like when I was religious and some of the things you list as well known were not to me. Nor are they to the vast majority of believers that are still like I was.

    Now that I know what it’s like to be free I will try every way I can to help free someone, whether it be subtle, in you face or a questionnaire. I’m aware that it may never serve any purpose but as long as I know I tried I will be satisfied.

    Becoming an atheist didn’t just make me right about one more thing, it made me right about everything I ever learned from religion that was total crap. And I’m still learning new stuff almost every day. I can almost absorb the podcasts faster than they can make them.

    I’m dumbfounded when a believer asks me to do things that I have already done in my 36 years as a believer, as if I did them wrong or never did them. Yes, I talked to God, nobody was home.

    I think believers belittle the previous faith that atheists had more than other atheists do.

    David, You started your comment out with “I honestly do not understand”. Do you understand now? Even if you don’t, I can’t explain it any better. Though that wouldn’t keep me from trying.

12. October 15th, 2008 at 1:34 am

    david rees says:

    I just don’t think that either side is talked into or out of a belief system. Take politics for example. You said you are a recently a democrat. That is almost more interesting to me than becoming an atheist.

    There is so much conversation and arguing and fighting about politics because of the election. How many people are ever actually persuaded? Of course the undecided are because they are generally not partisan. Perhaps they are the agnostics of the political world? Still, I think that their undecided state is, in its self, an ideology – perhaps based on “whats in it for me” or something less lofty than the hard right and left wings.

    I am a right leaning libertarian (small L). To me, personal liberty is paramount. This is not a popular value system in America. The libertarian crowd tends to be highly attuned to offers of pragmatic progress – usually in exchange for liberty (Virtually all gun control measures are predicated on that idea – that promise).

    I am not here to convert anyone to my belief system – mostly because my belief system is that everyone has a right to their (wrong headed if different from me) belief system.

    That said, no amount of arguing will persuade me to become a democrat. No amount of arguing will persuade me to vote for Obama because in my mind, it is settled that respecting personal liberty is not a priority for him.

    These beliefs are very similar to religious beliefs. Some kind of world altering, paradigm shifting even must occur in an individual for them to cross over to another belief system.

    I could be wrong about this and I am open to persuasion, but I have a high level of certainty that you cannot talk people out of their principled positions.

    It is a futile quest and frankly, I think you are on it for what it does for you, not what it might do for some strangers.

    If you want to help the human race, there are many, many, many opportunities to do so on a very practical level.

    So I will ask you this – which would be a better outcome from a given level of effort (from a person, organization or community):

    1. To feed, clothe and heal a population of 10,000 people.
    2. To convince that same population to discard their religion and more forward in atheism.

    I am curious – where are the atheist groups that are backing humanitarian charity work? Perhaps they exist, but from what I have seen, most of the work is being done by the religious and most of the religious appear to be Christians.

    Perhaps they are just atoning for the crusades?

13. October 15th, 2008 at 2:04 am

    Rob Jones "Brand New Atheist" says:

    I think your comparison of politics to religion is wrong. Here’s why. If we have our sides of the political scale and we share information truthfully with each other, we might actually learn something useful whether we change out position or not.

    That same discussion with a religious person is different in the fact that their answers are based on a lie, make believe, fairy tales and miracles. Could you as an adult have a serious conversation with another adult that still believes in Santa Claus? Remember, reindeer are as real to them as the three wise men.

    You can’t do it, you could not talk to them without thinking they’re crazy. But you could talk to a democrat and just think they are wrong. Whether it be your experiences vs theirs or stubbornness.

    Your argument doesn’t hold up. A better outcome would be to remove peoples religion so they stop praying for food and wellness. And it would keep a few of them from trying to kill me because their bible says I need to die for being an infidel.

    There are secular groups that do the same thing churches do. Religion pretends to be this thing that is trying to help you while convincing you you’re going to hell if you don’t give your life to God. It’s the bait and switch. Want a clean bottle of water? Give your life to Jesus.

    I don’t know what perspective you’re coming from but if you’re expecting me to have all the answers I don’t.

    I just hope you’re not another theology student. Theology students make me weary

14. October 15th, 2008 at 12:57 pm

    davidrees says:

    I am not a theology student or in any way associated with any religious organization.

    Your assertion that the religious people need to “stop praying for bread” seems intellectually dishonest to me. While many people pray when in dire need, it is exceedingly rare to see someone subvert their survival mechanisms by deciding pray instead of act – when there is a clear and reasonable course of action. Religion in general seems to be pretty successful (in that most seem to prefer some religion to none) and I think any religion that advised people to “pray food onto their table” at the expense of hunting and farming would have selected its self for extinction long ago.

    My point was that a persons world-view is usually not something that they can be talked into our out of easily. Everyone has an internal list of values and an emotional sense of which of those values are most important.

    I am sure you have met people who place a very high value on security and stability. Other people are willing to tolerate increased risks to enjoy other aspects of life. Some people accumulate material possessions to feel worthy or safe, other people are content to live modestly or in squalor as long as heavy demands are not placed on them.

    It is my belief that in all of these hypothetical but very realistic examples, people have made emotional decisions that certain things are more important than other things.

    The collective or the individual. Prior restraint vs. accountability. Progressive taxation or flat tax. A persons view on these dichotomies is going to depend on their world-view.

    Is there a rational argument to “prove” which tax structure is more “fair”? The rich should pay more because they have more – that sounds fair in one sense but how about the idea that everyone should contribute equally – isn’t that fair in another sense? there is no single right answer.

    I think a large number of people view religion in a similar way – it is not objectively knowable in the way that the answer to a math problem is knowable.

    Because of this uncertainly and the unprovable nature of god (or godlessness), many people “play it safe” and even if they are not certain about god, they take comfort in the idea of god and perhaps think that even if there is no god, it would be nice if there was.

    All of these mental shortcuts and beliefs that may exist for the purpose of self comfort all work against you and the logical or rational case against god. Simply put, most people will not be talked out of it unless they already wanted to leave and were just afraid of the possibility that god might be stalking them in their apostasy and messing up their life with traffic tickets and tax audits. You might get those people.

    I just can’t imagine why it would be worth your time.

    People are far too emotional to ever only hold “right” and “proven” ideas. That you are fixated on religion as a particularly significant wrong idea is again, curious.

15. October 15th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

    Rob Jones "Brand New Atheist" says:

    David Rees, I’m interested in knowing why you are so concerned with how I spend my time? I only have so much time I can invest in this and this is what I chose to do. Why is the idea that I might be wasting my time any concern of yours? Why are you trying to convince me to stop doing what I’m doing because it won’t work? I know it won’t work because the choice comes from within, just like it did with me. That doesn’t mean I can’t drop a few knowledge bombs on believers hoping they might actually do some research.

    I enjoy doing this and it’s a release for me.

16. October 16th, 2008 at 7:24 pm

    Rockinmomma says:

    Just wanted to pop in and let you know I have read this and I have a few things….I did do my research….please know I have total respect for you beliefs but here are my perceptions….

    1. When the bible was written it was not written from a scientific standpoint but from God. I wasn’t there but the perception of the people in that day and time was probably that the bat was a bird and God wanted to be clear so He included it in the winged things category…birds.

    2. Upon researching your view that the Bible teaches the world is flat I have found that if you really read all surrounding text carefully the Bible was actually eluding to the fact that the world is spherical 500 years before the argument ever began. Again my interpretation…

    3.I don’t actually read where the bible states the earth is the center of the solar system…let me research this one a little more.

    4. I’m not sure how to respond to that one…God created the moon and the stars…I don’t believe he ever gives a source for the light…it’s from God and we dont know what he used to make it glow.

    5.You are correct, the bible does condone slavery…I will not argue with you there. How exactly does that make the bible wrong? It’s merely a fact. After Jesus came we moved toward a more peaceful, more loving existance.

    6. Adam did not die a literal death…it was a spiritual death, a death of his community with God. The bible uses a lot of non-literal wording. While there are places in the bible where God literally struck people dead for their sins…it speaks more of a spiritual death.

    7 – 10. I have never read of a unicorn in the bible…you will have to point that out to me. The mistranslation you speak of regarding the virgin Mary you will also have to show me. What the bible addresses as far as going to heaven…you must believe in your heart that Jesus IS. If you don’t believe in God, then no, you don’t go to heaven but then again you probably don’t believe in hell either so no worries for you there. The only way to indefinitely get yourself out of heaven is blasphemy toward the spirit…

    That’s all for now….perhaps more later. Have a wonderful day Rob Jones :)

17. October 16th, 2008 at 7:50 pm

    Rockinmomma says:

    Correction…unicorns are mentioned in the bible in a few places but why is so hard to believe God created them such as he created the rhinoceros. They didn’t necessarily look like the pink cartoon creations that we think of today, nor does it say they were just a horse with a horn but that they were amazing in strength….

18. October 16th, 2008 at 8:00 pm

    Rob Jones "Brand New Atheist" says:

    Rockinmomma, I recommend you check out the SAB when doing your research. At least you’ll know more about what atheists think about the bible.

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

19. October 17th, 2008 at 12:12 am

    Rockinmomma says:

    I am willing to look at it….mind if I comment as I go…here on twitter…to your email…whichever.

    Have a wonderful rest of the night!!! I need some serious sleep.

    Happy Dreams
    Ginger

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